(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]HA[3]KM[0.50]TM[2700]
PW[Assu]PB[MoGoAltPar]WR[6d]DT[2009-10-24]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[MoGoAltPar [-\]: GTP Engine for MoGoAltPar (black): MoGo version MoGo version 4.86.Soissons: I'll resign if you win and playing until you pass if I win. If you passed and I did not, it often means that the status of some stones are not clear enough for me (I want to be sure we will agree on dead stones). Clarify them. Maybe I am losing, but have not enough time to be sure I should resign. In this case play until the end :'( (very rare cases)
]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]BL[2699.613]
;B[dp]BL[2699.362]
;B[pp]BL[2699.152]
;W[cd]WL[2680.519]
;B[jc]BL[2689.329]
;W[nq]WL[2672.606]
;B[ql]BL[2678.618]
;W[fq]WL[2664.709]
;B[iq]BL[2667.117]
;W[cn]WL[2648.218]
;B[kq]BL[2655.092]
;W[eo]WL[2641.363]
;B[mo]BL[2642.199]C[CGBSpender [-\]: is this mogo stronger than the other ?
]
;W[qf]WL[2626.655]
;B[qi]BL[2628.528]
;W[nd]WL[2617.487]C[medical [5k\]: this mogo is run on badass supercomputer :)
]
;B[pf]BL[2614.584]C[CGBSpender [-\]: oh, 0,5 win on 9*9, nice
]
;W[qc]WL[2606.374]
;B[pc]BL[2599.985]C[CGBSpender [-\]: except n5, b looks ok
]
;W[pg]WL[2600.733]
;B[of]BL[2584.699]
;W[qd]WL[2595.514]
;B[qg]BL[2568.311]C[snowman [-\]: a modern joseki in computer go, wow
]
;W[qe]WL[2589.535]C[CGBSpender [-\]: is there any estimation of this program rank ?
]
;B[pe]BL[2551.559]
;W[rg]WL[2585.047]C[Liisa [1d\]: 2k perhaps
]
;B[qh]BL[2534.045]
;W[je]WL[2580.736]C[CGBSpender [-\]: p14 looks stupid
]
;B[lg]BL[2515.745]
;W[le]WL[2567.748]C[Hinotora [13k?\]: This of a game should give some information about that. ;)
]
;B[jg]BL[2496.934]C[snowman [-\]: oh noes, not the center
]
;W[he]WL[2549.382]C[CGBSpender [-\]: hehe, funny
]
;B[hc]BL[2477.564]C[CGBSpender [-\]: the computer is " thinkng "  " whatever i play, i will win " :p
]
;W[fc]WL[2540.72]
;B[gd]BL[2457.169]
;W[ig]WL[2524.547]
;B[jh]BL[2436.128]
;W[ee]WL[2516.996]
;B[lc]BL[2414.758]C[CGBSpender [-\]: it's really obvious how different a computer is from a human
]
;W[ge]WL[2506.718]C[CGBSpender [-\]: it has no idea of what purpose a wall should have
]
;B[fd]BL[2392.42]
;W[ed]WL[2501.474]C[Liisa [1d\]: no it is not that obvious, if there is better program than mogo playing.
]
;B[pb]BL[2369.341]
;W[qb]WL[2489.278]C[Liisa [1d\]: ManyFaces and Zen can easily play at dan level
]
;B[fe]BL[2345.644]
;W[ff]WL[2484.432]C[Juippi [1d\]: oh no, a cut!
CGBSpender [-\]: do you really think even a 5k would get such a bad result from a wall ? :)
qQQp [-\]: mogo scales better to a supercomputer
]
;B[qq]BL[2321.31]C[qQQp [-\]: that's why it was chosen
]
;W[fj]WL[2453.902]C[qQQp [-\]: the other 2 are strong on standard PC
]
;B[jk]BL[2296.434]C[CGBSpender [-\]: does its strength increase in slow games ? or stay the same ?
Liisa [1d\]: that might be reasonable, because i was personally astonished the strenght of MF on 10 sec blitz
]
;W[lp]WL[2417.889]
;B[ko]BL[2270.895]
;W[lo]WL[2413.204]
;B[ln]BL[2244.863]
;W[mn]WL[2409.828]C[Hinotora [13k?\]: Doesn't human and computer have all unique playing styles?
Julian [3d\]: On KGS, both Zen and ManyFaces get stronger in blitz, because humans make bigger mistakes in blitz.
]
;B[nn]BL[2217.834]
;W[mm]WL[2398.608]
;B[kp]BL[2190.093]C[MoGoAltPar [-\]: GTP Engine for MoGoAltPar (black): MoGo version MoGo version 4.86.Soissons: I'll resign if you win and playing until you pass if I win. If you passed and I did not, it often means that the status of some stones are not clear enough for me (I want to be sure we will agree on dead stones). Clarify them. Maybe I am losing, but have not enough time to be sure I should resign. In this case play until the end :'( (very rare cases)
Liisa [1d\]: that is not so obvious, i was crushed by ManyFaces, but then bot made a simple mistake on L&D and i was able to win the game
]
;W[lm]WL[2353.004]
;B[kn]BL[2161.985]
;W[no]WL[2347.512]C[Julian [3d\]: The mistakes that those bots make usually are not time-panic related.
Julian [3d\]: i.e. They will misread L&D in slow games too. :)
]
;B[mp]BL[2133.079]
;W[np]WL[2343.524]C[CGBSpender [-\]: white is in trouble
dxxd [2k\]: seems so
CGBSpender [-\]: : /
]
;B[lq]BL[2103.467]
;W[on]WL[2339.088]C[Sponge7 [-\]: black is impressing
]
;B[nm]BL[2073.127]
;W[pl]WL[2334.659]C[tonight20 [1k\]: is he?
snowman [-\]: computer kibitz...
]
;B[nl]BL[2042.094]C[tobe30k [1d\]: w is so cool
]
;W[qm]WL[2330.532]C[feldaw: b stays cool and keeps emotion well under control
CGBSpender [-\]: haha
]
;B[qk]BL[2010.595]C[tobe30k [1d\]: r5?
]
;W[po]WL[2317.038]C[Suvi [-\]: emotions :)
tobe30k [1d\]: he just has one
]
;B[qo]BL[1978.444]C[matic [11k\]: I got a emo conputer!
]
;W[qn]WL[2313.053]C[matic [11k\]: computer*
tobe30k [1d\]: you emo
]
;B[ro]BL[1945.449]
;W[pr]WL[2306.36]C[matic [11k\]: Always like to cut myself a little, while playing go.
solver9999 [?\]: I'm emo
]
;B[pm]BL[1911.537]C[tobe30k [1d\]: emo are depressed people, right?
]
;W[qr]WL[2284.712]C[Sponge7 [-\]: emo are 13 yr old kids who can´t handle growing up
tonight20 [1k\]: not all depressed people r emo, but all ema are depressed ;\]
CGBSpender [-\]: and who self atari when they lose, so that you can see they are upset :p
]
;B[rr]BL[1877.489]C[matic [11k\]: or 15y old kids dressing up like twilight and think they be better off dead.
]
;W[pq]WL[2260.054]C[Suvi [-\]: talk about the game, not emos, please
matic [11k\]: aye aye
]
;B[om]BL[1843.505]
;W[rq]WL[2250.926]C[Sponge7 [-\]: w died...
Sponge7 [-\]: not?
Julian [3d\]: No. :)
tobe30k [1d\]: not
johndoom [1k\]: ko
Sponge7 [-\]: I dun get p7... whatever
]
;B[pn]BL[1809.663]
;W[qp]WL[2241.72]C[feldaw: hm, if w simply lives then game decided already
pali99 [5d\]: black try to live in white's moyo
Julian [3d\]: That would be exciting.
tobe30k [1d\]: tennuki?
]
;B[oo]BL[1775.457]
;W[cq]WL[2235.101]C[Mokki [3d\]: ouch
Mokki [3d\]: P5 was terribad
Julian [3d\]: B usually doesn't go for invasions. ;)
pali99 [5d\]: this wasn't necessary i guess that two stones
tobe30k [1d\]: a fan shape
sfrex [2k\]: why take?
]
;B[ec]BL[1741.627]
;W[dc]WL[2230.563]C[snowman [-\]: computer is nervous
goodminton [-\]: right slight tremble
]
;B[eb]BL[1707.679]C[Julian [3d\]: Usually computer plays this way when he thinks he's ahead... then is shocked later.
]
;W[ik]WL[2219.688]C[Dovery [3k\]: 4 stone trap 1 stone
]
;B[ij]BL[1673.682]C[goodminton [-\]: i know a decent therapist
Julian [3d\]: Human ran off wit' all my points...
]
;W[hk]WL[2210.405]
;B[ih]BL[1639.557]
;W[gg]WL[2201.085]C[goodminton [-\]: let's wait 2 years or 3 and we won't laugh any more
tobe30k [1d\]: 4 trap 1 is good, right?
]
;B[dq]BL[1605.462]C[marius1 [1k\]: just for torture
]
;W[cp]WL[2193.807]C[Julian [3d\]: I will still laugh. :)
goodminton [-\]: good attitude
]
;B[rp]BL[1571.267]C[Julian [3d\]: Thank you sir. :)
]
;W[rs]WL[2186.602]
;B[do]BL[1537.004]C[WapiFlapi [-\]: even if those computers are getting "strong" at go , its simply because thez are given more and more ruels to handle , but in  most cases they are unable to learn by their own .. thats actualy the problems wih this programs it seemss to me :)
tobe30k [1d\]: the best go program + comp can beat the crap out of julian, right?
feldaw: no way
ChristianB [3d\]: I think it can give him som handicap stones too
ChristianB [3d\]: some*
Sponge7 [-\]: no way
Sponge7 [-\]: you´re only 3d
tobe30k [1d\]: :P
goodminton [-\]: good enough
tobe30k [1d\]: it beat the crap out of me, that is for sure
goodminton [-\]: so you better leave the crap at home or improove :-)
tobe30k [1d\]: i cant, full of it
Julian [3d\]: I play badly sometimes, so it varies. Right now it depends a lot on what situations the bot encounters... they will misread certain races completely.
tobe30k [1d\]: but the comp is about 2d, right?
Liisa [1d\]: Maybe you will get killed tobe, But I will never loose to computer in my entire life.
goodminton [-\]: oho
feldaw: how old are you? 87?
goodminton [-\]: that's the right question
dxxd [2k\]: he probably won't play them anymore
]
;W[dn]WL[1986.878]C[Julian [3d\]: I expect bots will become stronger than me. :)
gobegin: don't say that
goodminton [-\]: for sure and in not too short a time
Liisa [1d\]: i can bet for this any reasonable amount of money
gobegin: i'd rather lose to a human than to a machine
]
;B[gq]BL[1502.938]C[solver9999 [?\]: 99 get !
Liisa [1d\]: (i.e. less than 1000 euros)
]
;W[fr]WL[1978.703]C[tobe30k [1d\]: frak
marius1 [1k\]: b missed f2
]
;B[fp]BL[1468.965]
;W[ep]WL[1974.452]C[snowman [-\]: i guess d3 and d5 were computer-like probes
]
;B[id]BL[1434.745]C[MoGoAltPar [-\]: GTP Engine for MoGoAltPar (black): MoGo version MoGo version 4.86.Soissons: I'll resign if you win and playing until you pass if I win. If you passed and I did not, it often means that the status of some stones are not clear enough for me (I want to be sure we will agree on dead stones). Clarify them. Maybe I am losing, but have not enough time to be sure I should resign. In this case play until the end :'( (very rare cases)
MoGoAltPar [-\]: GTP Engine for MoGoAltPar (black): MoGo version MoGo version 4.86.Soissons: I'll resign if you win and playing until you pass if I win. If you passed and I did not, it often means that the status of some stones are not clear enough for me (I want to be sure we will agree on dead stones). Clarify them. Maybe I am losing, but have not enough time to be sure I should resign. In this case play until the end :'( (very rare cases)
]
;W[ie]WL[1953.985]C[pasky [2d\]: bad luck :(
]
;B[sr]BL[1400.901]
;W[sq]WL[1950.241]
;B[eq]BL[1366.649]
;W[fo]WL[1945.82]
;B[gp]BL[1332.675]
;W[dr]WL[1940.258]
;B[gr]BL[1299.725]
;W[er]WL[1930.975]
;B[gh]BL[1267.368]
;W[fh]WL[1925.42]
;B[qa]BL[1235.925]C[goodminton [-\]: these probes are aji-keshi most of the times it's like the bot testing whether you have forgotten the l&d situation
]
;W[ra]WL[1918.014]
;B[pa]BL[1205.274]
;W[fb]WL[1905.297]C[pasky [2d\]: anyway, regarding bot strength, julian touched an important point; people think bots are weak because they make mistakes that seem silly, but in truth bot strength develops differently than human strength; usually the bot can make very strong moves and decisions, but then because of various software limitations in some situation the bot makes a silly mistake that only very weak human would make
]
;B[gb]BL[1175.279]
;W[db]WL[1901.18]C[goodminton [-\]: true but haven't humans their strong and weak spots as well
]
;B[rb]BL[1146.278]
;W[rc]WL[1893.509]C[WapiFlapi [-\]: sure they have :)
pasky [2d\]: yes, but they are still much more balanced than bots
Julian [3d\]: Yay! I'm back. :) I am really impressed that bots do so well despite some obvious bugs. Flaws in human play are harder for me to spot. ;)
]
;B[gj]BL[1117.629]
;W[gk]WL[1888.851]C[WapiFlapi [-\]: I am still wondering how R2D2 would do at go ... any ideas ? XD
goodminton [-\]: so bots are strong in close combat but misjudge overall situations more often
]
;B[fi]BL[1090.102]
;W[ei]WL[1885.078]C[pasky [2d\]: goodminton: actually, not at all - you cannot even generalize in this way
pasky [2d\]: there is no simple division close combat - overall situations
Julian [3d\]: Not that simple... they are good at certain moyo plays and certain kinds of fights...
]
;B[gi]BL[1062.858]
;W[fk]WL[1879.738]C[weirdchess [4k\]: b t19 is sente... not sure why the computer wont play it
pasky [2d\]: in fact, bots often make make very sound large-scale strategic decisions
Julian [3d\]: Much better than humans at staying awake. :)
]
;B[eh]BL[1036.435]
;W[fg]WL[1876.28]
;B[di]BL[1010.739]
;W[ej]WL[1873.032]C[Francois15 [13k\]: D12
]
;B[cj]BL[985.494]
;W[ch]WL[1864.916]C[juhop [2d\]: they don't always stay awake
goodminton [-\]: i agree i rather  refer to those monte-carlo blunders drawing away from decisive moments in lokal areas because of a seemingly larger point elsewere
blahhhh: so u mean they sometimes go to sleep mode?
]
;B[bh]BL[961.304]
;W[cg]WL[1855.131]C[juhop [2d\]: they do pass out and need reviving
juhop [2d\]: like mogo just a few minutes back
]
;B[bg]BL[937.423]
;W[bf]WL[1849.971]
;B[cf]BL[914.439]
;W[df]WL[1844.987]
;B[ci]BL[891.85]
;W[bk]WL[1840.111]C[pasky [2d\]: i think the biggest problem in monte carlo go currently is the "horizont effect" - when the monte carlo simulations give very biased result; e.g. it can very well be than the simulations have s17 group 50% living 50% dying; the moment the bot starts reading it in the tree, it quickly discovers white is alive and it's losing because of it, but what that simply does is start trying other moves, until it comes back to the s17 group status; so it tries to push away the s17 decision out of the tree "subconciously", playing moves that delay the inevitable the most - that is the cause for all the silly-looking throwin sequences and such monte carlo bots often play
]
;B[ck]BL[869.738]
;W[bl]WL[1836.536]
;B[cl]BL[848.341]C[Liisa [1d\]: Pasky, I am also quite impressed of the Montecarlo approach to the game. It so much different way of thinking than that of how humans think. But it is also effective, i think. Too bad that L&D is still difficult for gobots.
]
;W[fm]WL[1813.676]
;B[bm]BL[827.586]
;W[cm]WL[1809.35]C[snowman [-\]: gobots should practice more tsumego :)
tobe30k [1d\]: how you know so well about monte carlo, pasky?
weirdchess [4k\]: when a monte carlo bot thinks its losing, it resorts to the line where the most random simulations leads to an advantage; these moves tend to be silly looking moves like throwins, broken ladders, and random ko threats
]
;B[am]BL[807.008]
;W[bn]WL[1804.025]C[pasky [2d\]: tobe30k: I develop the pachi bot, currently 5k kgs
blahhhh: ?
Francois15 [13k\]: resign...
Julian [3d\]: I actually think Monte Carlo is doomed, long term. ;)
]
;B[be]BL[786.939]
;W[ce]WL[1801.247]C[blahhhh: actually developing go bot seems to be fun
weirdchess [4k\]: it seems like the best method so far to develop go computers
pasky [2d\]: i think monte carlo is the ultimate technique, it just needs information sharing with the uct tree
bucko [-\]: Monte Carlo simulators (even UCT) aren't too complex anyway...
]
;B[bj]BL[767.713]
;W[an]WL[1796.994]C[blahhhh: can make a fortune if it beat a pro
kpr [-\]: game have already end
ufhz824r [6k\]: Monte Carlo will be refined i think, maybe merged with neural nets?
tobe30k [1d\]: i want to develop something about go, too
]
;B[il]BL[748.559]C[Julian [3d\]: Best method so far doesn't mean it's the best method. :)
bucko [-\]: The problem is like Pasky says, that the game isn't a tree at all, it's a highly interconnected graph.
weirdchess [4k\]: what other methods would you suggest?  brute force?
]
;W[im]WL[1780.723]C[WapiFlapi [-\]: pasky : i don't belive you can base a technique on luck :/ 
dxxd [2k\]: life and death solver shouldn't be too hard...yet it can become quite good
bucko [-\]: The simulations need to be able to say "Ah! That position is similar to this other one!" and evaluate appropriately.
snowman [-\]: k10 was better...
]
;B[hm]BL[730.051]C[blahhhh: wouldn't brute force be really slow
ufhz824r [6k\]: sometimes half the board can be a L&D problem
]
;W[jl]WL[1763.882]C[bucko [-\]: This would benefit both in speed and accuracy, but it's not easy.
Beannie [-\]: WapiFlapi - not really luck, only in the same sense of evolution... that's been pretty powerful 
pasky [2d\]: wapiflapi: of course it sounds bad when you phrase it like that, but in fact UCT is based on very sound math of probability theory
Julian [3d\]: The question is more how you represent the data.
goodminton [-\]: but mc reminds somewhat of intuition so it might be a good start for later development
]
;B[hl]BL[712.114]
;W[jj]WL[1749.4]C[Liisa [1d\]: that is interesting point, Julian, but I think I know what you mean, because I rely on that when I say that I will not lose to computer never ever in my life.
tobe30k [1d\]: a graph can simplify to a tree
pasky [2d\]: bucko: RAVE does a lot of that, but it propagates simulations "bottom-up"
]
;B[kk]BL[694.666]C[pasky [2d\]: bucko: which is big problem if the montecarlo simulations are biased
]
;W[jm]WL[1732.155]C[Francois15 [13k\]: is it a real bot?
pasky [2d\]: what is missing is some "top-down" results sharing
pasky [2d\]: I try to work on that now :)
]
;B[hn]BL[677.561]C[pasky [2d\]: i have some ideas
]
;W[kj]WL[1729.225]C[decimal: w +2.5
AbiHasan [8k\]: w+10,5
]
;B[ll]BL[660.817]C[AbiHasan [8k\]: or more
Francois15 [13k\]: what it the approximate level of the bot?
bucko [-\]: Can't you use something like image similarity algorithms to get an idea of where to look?
goodminton [-\]: i guess real strong bots will have a big fuzzy part in there judgement
snowman [-\]: m10
weirdchess [4k\]: j11
]
;W[lj]WL[1689.943]C[goodminton [-\]: which seemes to fit the game of go to me
]
;B[lk]BL[644.464]C[pasky [2d\]: bucko: i think that's actually an overkill, i'm thinking much simpler methods should work
]
;W[mk]WL[1683.273]
;B[ml]BL[628.681]
;W[ii]WL[1679.639]
;B[hh]BL[613.354]C[blahhhh: assu is too strong for the bot
]
;W[hj]WL[1675.646]C[pasky [2d\]: bucko: in computer chess, there's something called "the killer heuristic" and "the history heuristic" that's not been really explored much in mc go as far as i can tell
snowman [-\]: how much was it for white, again?
]
;B[fl]BL[598.295]
;W[gl]WL[1665.391]C[ufhz824r [6k\]: b plays with 3 stones handicap
]
;B[el]BL[583.476]C[semiclassy [2d\]: pretty much, if I counted correctly :)
]
;W[gm]WL[1658.748]C[pasky [2d\]: francois15: the bot could be between 1d and 3d, but it's very hard to tell from a single handicap game
bucko [-\]: pasky: Presumably the latter is to ensure that moves with a high swing get a high priority?
]
;B[ke]BL[569.257]C[Onmyoji [2d\]: i count b+57.5
]
;W[kf]WL[1630.807]C[pasky [2d\]: bucko: no, that's another thing called "move criticality", it was briefly explored by the crazystone author with some minor improvements
]
;B[kd]BL[555.055]
;W[kg]WL[1627.721]C[notbibi [11k\]: SE counts b +57.5
Julian [3d\]: I think a good bot will need some representation of L&D, liberty counting, connections, etc. I don't think playing the game out (as current approaches try to do) to the end is viable in many situations. There are some cases where it's great, though.
]
;B[kh]BL[541.444]
;W[jf]WL[1625.189]C[pasky [2d\]: bucko: the history heuristic simply means some sharing of results between tree nodes and the tree root
]
;B[lh]BL[528.191]C[goodminton [-\]: rather w +15
bucko [-\]: The thing is, Julian, that MC+UTC does those things automatically.
Julian [3d\]: Yes, but it doesn't do them well.
pasky [2d\]: it does those things automatically _locally_
bucko [-\]: UTC is /really/ good at solving local things.
bucko [-\]: And you're suggesting just that.
pasky [2d\]: the problem is sharing the local results between all tenuki branches
]
;W[lf]WL[1550.396]C[bucko [-\]: UTC needs to re-evaluate L+D for every initial move.
Kirigo: a11 kill?
ufhz824r [6k\]: pasky, were there tries to merge UCT with other techniques like neural nets? Do you know?
]
;B[af]BL[515.275]
;W[cf]WL[1546.775]C[blahhhh: b's dead already
]
;B[nr]BL[502.438]
;W[mr]WL[1543.293]C[bucko [-\]: I believe Many Faces uses UTC and pattern matching and is about 1d.
pasky [2d\]: ufhz824r: stv is a bot that does that; i think it may be interesting, but i think there are more promising lines of research
]
;B[ms]BL[489.922]
;W[ls]WL[1536.599]C[goodminton [-\]: i don't think computer go future lies in conventional method there will rather be a quantum leap like mc
bucko [-\]: Without using 56 Cray cores.
ufhz824r [6k\]: ok, thanks
Julian [3d\]: (Neural nets in particular are pretty much useless without a really good representation of data.)
]
;B[lr]BL[477.652]
;W[ns]WL[1533.9]C[weirdchess [4k\]: is this standard yose?
weirdchess [4k\]: looks strange
pasky [2d\]: bucko: manyfaces uses UCT and maybe pattern matching and mainly the classical engine evaluation for setting priors
]
;B[oq]BL[466.029]
;W[or]WL[1530.55]C[Ptijoueur [1k?\]: in mogo it can be compared to a simple tree
dafra [3k\]: what hardware does MogoAltPar run on ?
]
;B[bd]BL[454.834]
;W[bc]WL[1527.039]C[bucko [-\]: pasky: I guessed. It's a useful optimisation, though.
pasky [2d\]: bucko: zen is a lot conceptually simpler i think, it's quite similar to crazystone - simple RAVE UCT with pattern matching AFAIK
tobe30k [1d\]: what is a simple tree?
]
;B[eg]BL[443.713]C[Ptijoueur [1k?\]: the monte carlo is first done to select the interesting area
]
;W[hg]WL[1515.145]C[pasky [2d\]: dafra: 48-core something iirc
pasky [2d\]: hmm
pasky [2d\]: actually better
]
;B[aj]BL[432.787]C[Suvi [-\]: 56-core Cray CX1. 
Tapani [?\]: 56-core cray cx1
Onmyoji [2d\]: lol
pasky [2d\]: The computer provided by CSC will be either a 56-core Cray CX1 available locally at the festival, or part of the 10864-core Cray XT5/XT4 (49th fastest on the latest top500 supercomputers list). 
]
;W[mc]WL[1497.83]C[Ptijoueur [1k?\]: then in this area the program simulates a lot of games and decides which one is the best
blahhhh: die in gote?
sadesade [1k\]: gote again
Levino [7k\]: :)
]
;B[md]BL[422.127]C[snowman [-\]: 56 cores and still die in gote
]
;W[ld]WL[1487.786]C[goodminton [-\]: desparation
]
;B[mb]BL[411.833]C[blahhhh: actually is this bot 3d?
]
;W[me]WL[1478.767]C[weirdchess [4k\]: probably about 2d is my guess
]
;B[nc]BL[401.828]C[Onmyoji [2d\]: T_T
]
;W[lb]WL[1474.676]
;B[md]BL[392.081]
;W[nh]WL[1469.767]C[ufhz824r [6k\]: what do the 2ds here think about its play? :)
goodminton [-\]: assu is enjoying himself
]
;B[ng]BL[382.429]
;W[mc]WL[1467.306]C[bucko [-\]: UCT is basically a really good tactical tool.
blahhhh: lets c how well bot counts ko threat
]
;B[kc]BL[372.949]C[Ptijoueur [1k?\]: indeed ofrthe moment mogo is kinda week on 19*19 but in 9*9 (where simulations can be "almost exhaustive" it could achieve a very high level of play
]
;W[nb]WL[1464.226]C[tobe30k [1d\]: i think it is stronger than me
first1kyu [2d\]: this bot is not 2d
]
;B[md]BL[363.973]
;W[mg]WL[1461.7]C[solver9999 [?\]: o(≧∇≦)o
]
;B[mh]BL[355.063]
;W[mc]WL[1458.377]C[Lovepove [6k\]: first1kyu you're right, it is around 1d
bucko [-\]: but things that are strategic are a little beyond it normally.
]
;B[fa]BL[346.242]C[Mem0r3x [1k\]: o14 is double ko
first1kyu [2d\]: but it will soon be strong
]
;W[ea]WL[1444.174]C[blahhhh: i think assu should give that bot around 4-5 handi
Julian [3d\]: Rank is a measure of how many games a ranked player wins... not how strong its moves are. ;)
]
;B[md]BL[338.021]C[juhop [2d\]: at this point, you cannot judge it anymore
]
;W[ho]WL[1437.73]C[juhop [2d\]: it 'knows' it lost
]
;B[go]BL[329.808]C[bucko [-\]: I've found UCT is very good at solving highly branching (ie. very tactical) problems. :)
Beannie [-\]: I think only makes sense to try and judge the strength up to white C3
]
;W[mc]WL[1430.783]
;B[fn]BL[321.831]C[Ptijoueur [1k?\]: the thing to do to improve it actually is to imporve the speed in monte carlo parts
]
;W[en]WL[1425.753]
;B[md]BL[314.013]C[Regenbogen [1d\]: n19 is sente
Regenbogen [1d\]: i think
]
;W[gn]WL[1423.075]
;B[in]BL[306.457]C[weirdchess [4k\]: honestly, it probably plays around 2-3d when ahead and down to 5-6k when behind
]
;W[mc]WL[1419.199]C[first1kyu [2d\]: yes Julian 
]
;B[ma]BL[298.86]
;W[na]WL[1415.38]C[first1kyu [2d\]: and where is the tournament statistik of this bot?
]
;B[md]BL[291.42]
;W[jn]WL[1412.772]
;B[io]BL[284.455]
;W[mc]WL[1410.266]C[juhop [2d\]: it is just a weird human habit to optimize score in lost games, it's not 'strength'
]
;B[al]BL[277.569]
;W[ak]WL[1407.416]C[bucko [-\]: People are bottist so bots can only tournament bots.
Julian [3d\]: It would be nice if there were a correlation between strong moves and a high rank, but... 1-2d is weak enough that you can play very badly and be 1d. ;)
goodminton [-\]: nice diskussion bye
first1kyu [2d\]: again right
bucko [-\]: So is 3d. :)
tobe30k [1d\]: ohh no
Julian [3d\]: Hehe. Thanks everyone. :)
Julian [3d\]: And yes, 3d too.
first1kyu [2d\]: why
first1kyu [2d\]: ?
ufhz824r [6k\]: a game against a 3d would be nice :-)
Ptijoueur [1k?\]: ^^
snowman [-\]: good show
first1kyu [2d\]: there is not statistik as far as I see
weirdchess [4k\]: I'd like to lose to it
Ptijoueur [1k?\]: try just MoGo
Julian [3d\]: Good job, Assu.
weirdchess [4k\]: there's also manyfaces1, which is 1d at 10second byoyomi
first1kyu [2d\]: could you tell me a Internet page
first1kyu [2d\]: ?
ufhz824r [6k\]: or maybe Assu gives it 5 stones?
juhop [2d\]: and it won Assu in even 9x9 game, to those that missed it.
Julian [3d\]: It's really fun to watch 6d give the 10s bot lots of handi and win. :)
Ptijoueur [1k?\]: euh i don't remember oO 2 seconds i'll try to find it
first1kyu [2d\]: thanks
blahhhh: is mogo strong?
Julian [3d\]: What statistic?
weirdchess [4k\]: yeah, webpage for what?
Ptijoueur [1k?\]: mogo won the world computer go championship tournament 2years ao
first1kyu [2d\]: for showing that this bot can beat 3d human players in even games about 50% of the time
Ptijoueur [1k?\]: (only one to separate goban into areas before doing montecarlo)
Julian [3d\]: Ah. Probably not KGS 3d?
first1kyu [2d\]: KGS 3d? is worthless
pasky [2d\]: guys, can you really tell difference between _human_ KGS 1d and 3d from a single handicap game?!
first1kyu [2d\]: not at all
Ptijoueur [1k?\]: ^^
pasky [2d\]: not to mention computer player where the strength distribution between various game features is so different?
Julian [3d\]: Oh no... I wouldn't try to judge the rank of anything based on a game... :)
first1kyu [2d\]: I was just wondering if the bots start beating 3d players in tournaments already - it will soon happen for sure
Julian [3d\]: I don't believe so.
first1kyu [2d\]: unless they are banned from tournaments of course :)
pasky [2d\]: currently in slow games i think best bots on commodity hardware are about kgs 1k
Julian [3d\]: I beleive the strongest bots are still about KGS 1-2k at reasonable time settings.
Julian [3d\]: Hehe.
weirdchess [4k\]: julian, have you played manyfaces1?
Julian [3d\]: Yes.
weirdchess [4k\]: how well do you do against it?
pasky [2d\]: manyfaces1 plays 10s blitz
Hinotora [13k?\]: Was that one the circuit shattering move?
pasky [2d\]: that's not "slow game"
first1kyu [2d\]: :)
pasky [2d\]: i think pachi 5k would be at least 2k in 10s blitz
first1kyu [2d\]: being good at blitz is something nice too
Julian [3d\]: I try to give it 4H and usually lose. :)
weirdchess [4k\]: heh
first1kyu [2d\]: I can lose at 4 stones too lol
pasky [2d\]: well anyway, i still have 4 stones to catch up to the best bots :(
first1kyu [2d\]: see u all
pasky [2d\]: tahnks to altparty for arranging this game! :)
juhop [2d\]: Yes, thanks to organizers.
])
